An audience with our elected representatives

Martyn and Karen as pictured on their list of surgery dates

Apologies for the length of this post, but it was a very long and arduous meeting.

Towards the end of our discussion with Inspector Firth (see below), Martyn Jones MP and Karen Sinclair AM joined us and we talked about their involvement in the campaign. Both Martyn and Karen were very indignant that people felt they hadn't been supportive of the anti-landfill campaign. They said that nothing could be further from the truth. They also said they were very hurt by the nasty and unfair things which had been written about them in this blog.

Karen explained that she didn't write anything on her web site about landfill at Hafod Quarry (between August 25th and October 13th) because she and/or her office staff were on holiday and people are entitled to their holidays. What she didn't explain was how so many other topics managed to appear on her web site during this time. Karen invited people to come to her office and read the landfill file. She said that scarcely a week/week and a half go by without her contacting the Environment Agency about Hafod. The protesters pointed out that they are on the phone to the EA every day. Some of their disappointment in Karen relates to her extravagant claims in a press release posted on her web site about how she will ensure that the MWH licence is followed to the letter. It was suggested that Karen should not make promises she can't keep.

There appears to have been some breakdown in communication, as Karen says she is regularly on the phone to some of the campaigners, but there is clearly a need to get this information disseminated more widely, so people understand what Karen is doing on their behalf. Karen asked people to let her know of any infringements in future, and she will follow all of them up. Karen can be contacted at karen.sinclair@wales.gov.uk or by phone on 02920 898724. Karen was shown the film of the potato starch incident and said she would contact the EA about this incident.

Karen was asked why it was Janet Ryder and not her who tabled the statement of opinion at the Assembly. Karen said "That's nonsense! Statements of opinion are just bits of paper."

Someone mentioned the quarry issue as a potential vote-loser for Karen and Martyn. Karen said that anyone was welcome to stand against her and try to do a better job. "To be honest, Karen," someone said, "if there was an election tomorrow, they could stand a pig against you, and the pig would win." There was also condemnation by the protesters of the councillors who voted against revocation, and a pledge to campaign on the landfill issue coming up to the next elections, making sure everyone is informed about how their councillor voted.

Martyn felt aggrieved that he had been accused of not attending the demonstrations at the quarry, when he had been there one morning and stood with the protesters. Some of the protesters said they hadn't seen him there. Martyn said that he was sorry that he'd gone on a day when they weren't there. Someone asked what date it was but Martyn didn't have that information. It was suggested that he could find this out and let the group know, but he took exception to this idea. However, to move things along, a printed invitation to visit the quarry was issued by the group to both Karen and Martyn. Martyn said he would be able to attend in a couple of weeks from now as he has other commitments before then. I'm sorry but I can't remember when Karen said she'd go along.

Martyn got himself embroiled in a nasty exchange with one campaigner, whose attitude he said he found "very annoying", a comment she took exception to. He went on: "I'm doing everything I can. The attitude that I'm doing nothing annoys me. I've just said that I'll send copies of all the letters I've written." (Later in the meeting he did apologise for this outburst). Martyn was asked what he had done in Parliament. He said that he did a lot in 1991, and at some time got himself into trouble with the Transport and General Workers Union for opposing landfill. He recently met the Environment Minister. When pressed for more information about what he'd been doing on the quarry issue, Martyn asked what else people wanted him to do. Someone felt that he should have been taking every opportunity to promote the anti-landfill cause and that he should be offering ideas rather than asking the protesters for a lead on what he should be doing.

There was a discussion about the likelihood of Carwyn Jones revoking the permission. Karen said Carwyn has to decide if revocation is the right thing to do, according to the regulations. There was some feeling amongst the campaigners that revocation could be the only right course of action, and that it would depend on Carwyn being brave enough to make the decision to revoke. Karen and Martyn were asked whether they would resign from the Labour Party if Carwyn didn't stop the landfill. They were very scathing of this suggestion, calling it "childish" (Karen) and "pathetic" (Martyn).

Karen was asked if she would help vote the Assembly budget down if this could make sure Carwyn revokes the permission and places money in a contingency fund in case of a successful claim by MWH (which the campaigners would strongly oppose for reasons outlined elsewhere). Karen said "if this is still going on after the budget has been set, then I will still be saying that the Welsh Assembly Government should do everything in its power to ameliorate the financial burden - that's what I said in my amendment to Janet Ryder's statement of opinion. In law, Carwyn is right - the responsibility is on the local authority - but I say that we have a moral responsibility. However, voting a budget down is a different thing. The budget includes money for hospitals, education etc. I won't vote against my Party's budget." Karen went on to describe John Marek's move as "pop politics".

Karen was asked if she would support the protesters taking direct action at the quarry if Carwyn doesn't stop the landfill. She said that she would never support direct action. Karen was asked what action she would recommend the protesters take to protect their health and the health of their children if Carwyn doesn't stop the landfill, given that any action via Europe could take years, during which time everyone will be exposed to nuisance and detrimental effects on their health, and some babies likely to be born with deformities such as cleft palates. Karen skirted round the issue and didn't answer the question. Later she was asked again - what action would you recommend? She ummed and aahed and offered the non-answer: "go to Europe, I suppose."

At the point where the discussion seemed to be going round in circles, Inspector Firth helpfully intervened and suggested that the campaigners could request some definite actions from Martyn and Karen.

It was suggested that Karen and Martyn need to let people know about their actions in relation to the quarry. They will consider producing a regular newsletter with updates. It was agreed that their contact details should be publicised - these are being sent round the Hafod group, Karen's details are above, and Martyn can be contacted at jonesm@parliament.uk and tel: 0207 219 3417, fax: 0207 219 6090. Karen stressed, however, that they did not want any hate mail.

Karen was asked to ask Carwyn to make an unannounced visit to the quarry. Karen said he had already promised that neither protesters nor MWH would have warning. Karen was asked to suggest that Carwyn should attend when landfill operations are likely to be in full swing, and that he should be guided around the outside of the quarry, so he can grasp the scale, and around Johnstown, so he can see how close the houses are to the site.

There may have been more action points but I'm afraid I can't remember what these were - I was losing concentration after two hours. Feel free to put your additions, corrections and opinions under "comments" below.