Wigley gives Hafod Landfill the thumbs down
Dafydd Wigley joined the picket at Hafod this morning. The former Plaid Cymru leader is standing on the North Wales regional list for the Assembly and came down to show his support for the protest. Some media coverage despite the rain.
posted by hafod @ 1:43 PM
30 comments
30 Comments:
Great post, as ever.
However, the title "Wigley gives Hafod the thumbs down" sounds like he is unsupportive of the protest! Perhaps a better title would have been "Widgley give Mersey waste the thumbs down".
Just a thought. Keep up the good work.
Title altered. That clearer? :o)
Hi all,
So old Ridley Wigley came a calling...I trust Plaid as much as I would trust New Labour.Plaids latest angle to get on the gravy train is that they are all pretending to be Socialists...that's a larf that is.
Plaid are a stagnant party who have long since substitued their radical politics for "safe" middle of the road stuff.
The trouble with Plaid is that it has become an institution,on the one hand embracing capitalism and on the other hand when questioned about their commitment to the status quo they rattle off some half hearted subscription to narrow minded nationalism
Plaid are New labour with a samll N.
Watcher
You are wrong Watcher and also anonymous!
Maybe you could advise the people which party to support in the Assembly election next May. Is it to be Tory Mark 1 Con, Tory Mark 11 Lib or Tory Mark 111 Lab? Is there any other party other than Plaid you can recommend or are you the one that flits from one tiny grouping to another just to cause chaos and disorder?
Answer you coward!
You're wrong Watcher, New Labour are far better than Plaid - you see, they've got invisible shields that they use to visit Hafod... Carwyn, Martyn have managed to come to Hafod without anyone seeing them ;-)
Plaid, on the other hand, keep get spotted on the picket line - Wigley, Janet Ryder, Jill Evans not to mention the group regulars who don't make a song and dance about their politics.
Oh, do we have some new contributors here or just new alter-egos?
Hi all,
I support no political parties because I am older enough and wise enough to realise that the system of election we have in the UK is little more than a farce.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that whatever the political party our representatives belong to that for the most these parties are all the same and Plaid is no exception.
The fact that any party or individual partakes in the sham of an electoral process in this country signifies that they have long given up subscribing to the principles of justice, freedom and equality.
If followers of Plaid think that their party is going to lead to the salvation of the Welsh people then they are guilty of gross self deceit.
Plaid are no different from all of the other parties.They encourage the proliferation of quangos and suck up to big business in an attempt to bring low paid shite jobs to Wales.
And if they do win a few more seats come May their next objective will be a coalition with Labour.
I have seen it all before a thousand times.
90% of Plaids representatives in government and assembley are little more than pillars of the establishment.The other 20% are liberals with the odd quasi socialist chucked in for good measure.
On the wanker scale they are up there with New Labour,Tories and the Lib Dems.
Watcher
So Watcher I ask you yet again who or what do people vote for? Are you suggesting everyone abstains, answer the question!
Hi Thomas Roberts,
I personally don't vote for anyone and I never will.
I think everyone should abstain from voting.
The idiotic and archaic system of representation we have now is something I never had a say in.It was here when I was born and it is still here now.
I have never been asked would I prefer a system that is more representative,so where is the democracy in that?
What we have now is a system that every 5 years or so rubber stamps a predetermined system of government that takes it orders from bug business and multinationals.
Much is made of the political "players".Just look at the Blair /Brown fiasco that has drenched the press for what seems like a hundred years.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter who sits in number 10,they are there just to keep up the pretence of democracy.
Take our local clown Martyn Jones.
He used the Socialist ticket way back in 87 to get into power,but like so many before him he became a pillar of the establishment immediately he got into office.He has been little more than a reactionary piece of shit ever since casting off his "christian socialist" pretentions long ago.Why is this allowed?...simple...the idiotic voting system we have.
Lets all work our balls off to get rid of Sinclair and Jones and replace them with two more "representatives" who are just as bad.
We know Karen Sinclair is a bufoon of legendary standing but she is the type of person that flourishes in this electoral system.
I reiterate,I was born into this farce of a democracy,and I have never been asked do I want it changed.It suits the people that control the politicians.Voting is perhaps the most useless occupation anybody in this country can engage in.
Remember one of the characteristics of our present education system is to produce a crop of 16 to 18 year olds evey year that are politically ignorent.
This ignorence goes with them throughout their lives,and leads to an unquestioning acceptence of existing political structures in this country.
The result of this is a docile apolitical population fed on soaps and trivia provided by a relentless media machine that churns out endless diversionary crap day in day out in an attempt to create a race of unthinking materialistic clones who wander around wide eyed thinking that what they see before them is a "natural" state of affairs.
So Thomas Roberts what do you think of the voting system. ???
Watcher
Well watcher,
For once we almost agree but not quite. The younger generations are not detatched from politics because of media brain washing (if that is what you mean) but know it is all bollocks. We have the old sitcom Yes minister and The New Statesman to show us what politicians are really like.
When Labour finish digging us into their hole, the Tories will be back for a term or three until we start to forget how shit Blair was. And around it goes.
JD
Watcher said: "90% of Plaids representatives in government and assembley are little more than pillars of the establishment.The other 20% are liberals."
Your maths are only matched by your ignorance of Plaid!
All the same? One example... Plaid is alone among the main parties in not taking fat loans from millionaires - all its cash comes from members.
Vote Schmote!
Hi Seren,
So Plaid never associate with the business fraternity?...come on seren get real!!! or shall we get down to the real nitty gritty of plaid and their business associations...it doesn't make nice reading.
Watcher
Let's hear the worst about Plaid and their business associations... I wonder if it'll match the dodgy loans and peerages that Plaid and the SNP helped expose in Parliament.
I thamk Watcher for the comments,if only it had been made clearer on the position in the first place.
The point has to be made however, that we have become accustomed to the big three from London for so long that an independent organasation or party (call it what you will) has to be given a chance otherwise we are doomed to live under the big three and they will will continue to lie, cheat and rob us for generations to come.
We need a radical change in direction and the experience gained at Hafod and a large number of other people orientated disputes throughout the country is at last proving to people they can make a change but the pressure has to be maintained to show up the fraudsters for what they really stand for i.e. big business and their own self
interest.
They can only be beaten by every contributor to this site acting together instead of resorting to inane comments that are constantly appearing. As the statement goes! "The people united will never be defeated"!
Hi Seren while we are at it,
Elfyn Llwyd,Adam Price,and Hywel Williams all voted to allow Fox hunting to continue.
Apart from that being the act of low life scum why are they associating themsleves with the Fox hunting fraternity.
Can you imagine having any faith in people with such double standards.
Adam price pretending to be the great crusader trying to impeach Blair whilst at the same time embracing the foxhunting community,plus through his business interests fully subdcribing to the Thatcherite/Blairite free market economic thinking that blight this country.
And that is only the tip of a very large iceberg that puts Plaid in the major league of two faced hypocritical chancers.
By association Seren you are as bad as them.If you want profound change in this country and observe a redistribution of wealth,and if you desire to see the increase in freedom and equality then I think you are barking up the wrong tree by embracing people who actively support the murdering of defenceless animals for "sport".
And in case you haven't noticed the Fox hunting community is representative of the the most reactionary (and richest)elements of british society who have a profound vetsed interest in keeping things the way they are.
It's quite hollow sounding when you hear the great Elfyn Llwyd waxing lyrical about the gap beween rich and poor widening.Does he give a feck as long as he gets invited to the hunt ball..well does he?
Socialist my arse!!!
Watcher
Watcher - If you want a debate about fox hunting, we can have that elsewhere (you know where I am) rather than on the Hafod site. The rest of your post is just wild accusations about Plaid without substantiating them.
I’m sorry Watcher, I must comment on your rant against Plaid. On the foxhunting issue Plaid did not vote for foxhunting but against a government bill. A bill created for the sole purpose of placating Labour’s back benches; which as far as I can see, hasn’t saved a single fox. Plaid’s policy is that foxhunting should be a devolved issue, decided at the Assembly on a free vote.
When you say that Plaid are the same as the other parties and just prop up this system and that it in some way believes in British parliamentary democracy is incredible. In case you didn’t know, the main reason plaid exists is to sever Wales from the control of the so called democracy of the United Kingdom that you describe so well.
Ieuan Wynn Jones himself talks about creating in Wales a “community of communities”. We want to create a new society where politicians are constantly scrutinized by a Peoples’ Assembly. A society where decisions are made as far as possible at a local level, democracy that works from the bottom up.
Is Plaid socialist? At the next election we will stand for:-
• Immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq
• Free school meals for primary school children
• Public ownership of the railway system
• Housing cooperatives and the defence of council housing as an alternative to Labour's pro-privatisation agenda
• To make Wales free from oil dependency within a generation
• Opposing nuclear power and nuclear weapons
Watcher, it is easy for you to sit in your ivory tower criticising everyone but as Marx said “The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.”
Hi Maurice/Seren.
I think a protest site of this nature is a good place to have a debate about the political parties who pretend to support the issue.
Firstly your statement about the fox hunting issue is nonsense,all of the three Plaid MPs(the shady businessman, the soliciter and the lecturer/consultant) supported the continuation of fox hunting and trying to dress it up as a matter of parliamentary procedure shows to what extent you have blinded yourself to what these morons are really about.
There is a basic difference of opinion here.You believe that Plaid(whatever their manifesto)are going to significantly change things for the people of Wales.
But from my ivory tower I think it is sad that people who call themselves socialists fool themselves into believing that middle class reactionary parties like Plaid are going to change anything.
You quote from Marx but I suggest you go back and re-read what he has to say,especially about the bourgeoise running the show for the people who own the means of production.
On the question of the hafod protest Plaid like the rest of the parties just use it as another bandwagon to jump on.
Plaid like all of the other parties will never make any significent move to alter the pre-dominance that big business have in this country.
The majority of their members in office spend a significent amount of their time up the arse of big business in an attempt to bring "jobs" to wales.
Same old bollocks.
"Encouraging investment" they call it.
The dismantling of the present predominance that business has over society doesn't even come into Plaid Cymru's mindset and any attempt at that certainly doesn't enter into their manifesto.
Plaid,like NewLabour,Tories and LibDems is just another stomping ground for middle class professionals to extend their ego's and bank balances and make themselves feel important.
Maurice/Seren...ten years down the line and you will be kicking yourselves for wasting so much time on a party that is composed of career politicians.
I feel quite ashamed that Plaid are viewed internationally as the voice of Wales.
I feel extra ashamed that because of the Plaid Mps support for fox hunting that animal groups all over the world view the party that is supposed to represent Wales with extreme caution.
And perhaps most significent than anything else is Plaid's total indifference to animal welfare.
They have never mentioned anywhere their opposition to the mass murder of animals that goes on every day in the UK just so people can eat meat.Like all other political parties they haven't even begun to investigate the moral and health values concerning a vegetarian diet.
Ghandi said" A nation is judged on the way it treats it's animals"
Plaid haven't even got a policy on initiating an end to the disgraceful exploitation of animals.How can these idiots and bufoons be taken seriously.
Watcher
Have a go at Plaid all you like but your comments about Plaid jumping on the Hafod bandwagon are completely out of order.
Some of the most active people in the campaign group, as you should know, are Plaid people. They've done the donkey work without pushing their politics.
Watcher, once you've finished slagging off Plaid are you able to suggest a positive alternative?
Hi Seren,
You tread a fine line here concerning what you think positivity is.
Despite all of the work put into Hafod the reality is nothing has changed apart from one importnat thing.
People who a few years ago probably had a level of belief in democracy have now had their illusions shattered by becoming actively involved with the Hafod and other projects.
One of the things said at the meetings is that they want to keep politics out of the protest.However this protest only ruffled feathers of the local New labour mafia when there was a possibility that people might stand against them in the elections.
What I am saying here is that if the Hafod group don't organise themselves politically they are doomed to failure anyway.
But let's jump forward a bit and imagine members of the group got elected in local/national elections,how long will it be before they end up being swallowed up by the institutions and commence cultivating the indifference required to be a politician.Look at the stark example of Brynle Williams who brought the nation to a standstill but once voted into power has the greatest difficulty in moving himself let alone bringing a nation to it's knees.
The answer is not in the electoral system,the electoral system is a waste of time.
Hafod fetches politics to the people and it is with the people it should stay.
Politics shouldn't be delegated to other people or reduced to the act of voting every five years for a clown like Martyn Jones.
The problem is that a protest like Hafod is by it's nature a political thing.
Along come the "professional" politicians becuase they see this as an opportunity to gain votes.Plaid are no exception.I am not doubting their sincerity over the issue,but I am doubting their commitment to real change,and I radically question their belief in an electoral system, that breeds a system of government that renders it's people helpless on any political level...i.e. we vote in our enemies every few years on a national and local level.
Plaid is no exception in having a vested interest in the existing scenario.
The bottom line is that over 60 million people are represented by just under a thousand people.Plaid and co have no desire to see increased representation,and this is the case with all of the political parties.
You cannot use the framework that supports an economic/politico system against itself.There will be occasional victories,but they are the exception rather than the rule.
So people do one of two tings, hope for the occasional victory or just plod on.
Hafod is a gross manifestation of big business verses members of the public.The mechanisms are in place for big business to win.Plaid or any of the other political parties have, in none of their manifestos,suggested anything other than cosmetic solutions to dismantle the stranglehold business interests have over Wales and the world.
Consequently their interest in a fight like hafod are just entirley superficial.
If you want solutions or positive actions you won't get it unless you contribute to a movemnet that fetches politics and decision making back to the people.
I believe that if you pin your colours to the mast of any of the established political parties(including plaid) then you are barking up the wrong tree.It's nice to have some sort of political commitment but you have to distinguish between a desire for profound change against just pissing in the wind.
Supporting Plaid/all other parties is pissing in the wind.
Watcher.
When you say power needs to come back to the people, I couldn't agree with you more. Campaigns like Hafod (and the one against the LNG pipeline down in S Wales) have focussed attention on those putting profit before people.
But single issue campaigns, by their nature, die when those single issues are won or lost. So we need a movement/network to link those single issues and make the general point about capitalism's disregard for people and the planet and the need for an alternative.
This movement needs to confront the political establishment by stressing grassroots democracy against the top-down authoritarian state we currently live under.
One way of confronting it is to protest/lobby (as we've been doing), another is to challenge them where it hurts - in the ballot box. If our cause is genuinely popular, then it will win mass support in the community.
This is where we'll probably disagree ;-)
You could go off and start a new party - the People's Party - because you say no other party represents your views. Maybe but we both know how difficult a task that is without resources.
Or you look around to see what's already there. If you want a party that puts the people of Wales first, that is at the forefront of campaigns (not jumping on bandwagons) to make this place greener and cleaner and is not in hock to big business, then I'd opt for Plaid.
You'll disagree but I don't see you putting forward an alternative.
Watcher, you mentioned Plaids 'links' to businesses, and used Fox Hunting as an example. Care to explain how? I know that many within Plaid Cymru are for the continuation of fox hunting, a policy I myself despite being a Plaid Cymru member oppose. But it has nothing to do with business, it has to do with the support they get from the Rural Farming Community. Plaid Cymru's policies have to be confirmed by the membership. I was at the National Council that confirmed the policy to fox hunting and it as passed for a variety of reasons - many support it as a part of culture ( I don't), many like Seren mentioed supported the policy in order to get the matter devolved to the Welsh Assembly, and others opposed it.
All of Plaid Cymru's funds are raised by members, and we don't use promises as a way of getting cash from out funders unlike the British Parties.
I can appreciate some not being happy with Plaid Cymru being so involved in this Hafod Protest, but why can't they? Should it be a Labour only issue? PC are a legitimate party in Wales and in the Wrexham/Clwyd South area, like any other legitimate party who are serious about Wales they have a perfect right to stand for what they believe here in Johnstown.
Anon,
What I am trying to say here is pretty bloody simple!!!
The dominance of corporate structures in our economy are destroying our ability to progress as a humanity.
We are a nation of wage slaves swallowing endless drivel fed to us by politicians about the need to "modernise" in order to "face the challenges of a global economy"
What this really means is that politicians are busy dismantling any rights people have fought for over the last 500 years and are replacing them with draconian measures that enable the dominance of the very few to control the many...the rich control everybody else...it's business and corrupt politicians verses the people and the fox hunting community are definately representative in part of the rich.
Anon...wake the fuck up!
Plaid have no charter to dissolve the stranglehold of big business in fact Plaid like all the other parties spend most of their time arselicking to the business community in the hope that the money men will honour us by chucking a few million in the direction of Wales to create a couple of hundred low paid jobs.
As a political force for change Plaid are no different to the rest of the political parties.If the people of Wales are fooled for one minute into believing Plaid will ever liberate them from the conditions that create Hafod scenarios then they are really just fooling themselves,and Plaid are fooling the people.
It's a party of gastronomic windbags,playing the nationalist game whilst fully embracing the international capitalist regime.
An amoeba with severe learning difficulties understands that any filth that associates themselves with the foxhunting fraternity have little difficulty in embracing the economic system that is slowly but surely seeing off any hope of releasing the potentail of humanity,whilst at the same time initiating the demise of our small but lovely planet.
Watcher
Watcher,
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. But, that reply was basically one long message of abuse and childish swearing and name calling. We can all swear if we like, but your inability to discuss in a mature manner speaks volumes about yourself I'm afraid.
When you've learnt to behave like an adult I'll give you some credibility.
Hi annon,
Bollocks...you should swear a bit more yourself.Flowery speeches and verbosity will not get rid of the shits that control us.
Watcher.
thanks James
thanks zoot :)
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I never said 49 mph at any point. It is 85 kph (53 mph) that all LGVs are limited to by law. If you think that he was doing 63 mph I suggest that you get the device used to record the speed checked. All LGVs have the tacograph calibrated every 2 years. When was yours last checked? When it left the factory in the mid 1990s?
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:38:00 PM
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Anonymous said...
It is starting to get people worried. With no blogging going on what are the hafodbloggers plotting next. Another break in perhaps? Maybe more trying to run vehicles off the road? Or is it just more bogus reports to waste peoples time?
Worried? No!
Curious is a better word.
Perhaps they have realised they are flogging a dead goat.
Unless the person doesn't work for MWH.
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:41:00 PM
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:42:00 PM
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:13:00 PM
Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:39:00 PM
Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:09:00 PM
There is no name mentioned and definately no photograph so I think that once again you are wrong.
Friday, September 21, 2007 8:40:00 PM
Friday, September 21, 2007 10:11:00 PM
Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:04:00 AM
Sunday, September 23, 2007 4:38:00 PM
Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:13:00 PM
The people who run this site are bigots. They delete posts that disagree with their point of view.
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